So I got into a discussion about Grave of the Fireflies with some people on the Nausicaa.net mailing list. E-mails have been removed, and everything here's been republished without permission.
Spoilers in great number, so if you haven't seen the movie, you probably ought not to read this.
Noel Vera Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 3:53 PM
A little debate I got over Takahata's film in one online forum:
http://journals.aol.com/noelbotevera/MyJournal/entries/909
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gabe Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 6:17 PM
First, I just wanted to say, I don't like GotF. I despise the brother character. I don't like the way he shirked his responsibilities, but mostly I don't like how he let his sister starve to death. And I too got the "Look at me, I'm art" vibe that Dock Miles did ("Dock Miles: I'm on a different vibe with Fireflies. I agree that it's trying to be an animated version of Forbidden Games. And I think that's just a bad, pretentious, tedious idea. Some films slap you in the face every few moments: "I'm ART, goddammit, I'm ART!" For me, Fireflies just kinda whispered it over and over. Had a hard time finishing it."). Mind you I watched it only once, and that was in my high school years, almost a decade ago, so I don't recall a lot of specific details.
Regarding "to animate or not to animate", as someone has previously said, it may not be the best thing to do to starve child actors to make a movie. Given that, and looking at the state of live action film making, I don't think any real starvation would have to be done in order to achieve the same effect. In fact, it may have been even more visceral if done in live action. Then again, I'm no expert on special effects, so take that for whatever it's worth.
Regarding the "Maus" effect of the animation style, I wouldn't think that would be a consideration of Takahata. As you said, animation is Takahata's chosen profession. He wanted to tell this story, and animation was probably just a matter of fact decision. If the effect is there, I doubt it's intentional. That being said, I think there is no such effect in GotF. Looking at GotF, I think the designs, relatively speaking, are quite realistic, and the movement of the
characters is also quite realistic. For me at any rate, I never felt that kind of shift in perspective.
With animation in general, the way I see it, if you draw a human figure, I attribute to it the label of 'human', real or not. It's not so much a matter of realism or style, although extremes probably do factor in (e.g., a stick figure versus a Rembrandt). So a drawn mouse dying illicits a different reaction (from me) than a drawn human dying, even though, clearly, no mouse or human has died (in liveaction, obviously, this may not be so clear).
I think you're right regarding the best way to view it (Noel:I'd say forget that it's animation and try looking at it (if ever you get around to doing so again) as a story. Is the story told well? I think so, but maybe if you set the question of "to animate or not to animate" aside, some other reason why it seems so unlikeable or pretentious might come up.). And with regard to that, please see my first paragraph.
gabe
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Michael E. Kerpan Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 7:41 PM
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:17:29 -0400, gabe wrote:
>First, I just wanted to say, I don't like GotF. I despise the brother
>character. I don't like the way he shirked his responsibilities, but
>mostly I don't like how he let his sister starve to death.
Do you really think Takahata _approved_ of the choices the brother made? Do you have any idea where the story comes from (and how the author of the
underlying story viewed the events)?
> And I too got the "Look at me, I'm art" vibe that Dock Miles did
I never had the slightest sense of this. quite the contrary. I seriously doubt that imitating "Forbidden Games" remotely entered into Takahata's mind.
> Mind you I watched it only once, and that was in my high school years,
> almost a decade ago, so I don't recall a lot of specific details.
Perhaps, with a more adult perspective (and more refined artistic judgment), you would not be so dismissive of this film -- oif you saw it today.
>I think you're right regarding the best way to view it (Noel:I'd say
>forget that it's animation and try looking at it (if ever you get
>around to doing so again) as a story. Is the story told well? I think
>so, but maybe if you set the question of "to animate or not to
>animate" aside, some other reason why it seems so unlikeable or
>pretentious might come up.). And with regard to that, please see my
>first paragraph.
I really hate it when people fling around the word "pretentious" -- that is one of the few things I find to be genuinely pretentious.
I find the film sad and depressing at times -- but never unlikeable. And the story is told exceptionally well.
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gabe Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 8:13 PM
On 10/25/05, Michael E. Kerpan wrote:
> Do you really think Takahata _approved_ of the choices the brother made? Do
> you have any idea where the story comes from (and how the author of the
> underlying story viewed the events)?
Yes, I know precisely why the brother did those things [1], and as I said ("I think you're right regarding the best way to view it (Noel:'I'd say forget that it's animation and try looking at it (if ever you get around to doing so again) as a story.'"), I'm judging the story.
> > And I too got the "Look at me, I'm art" vibe that Dock Miles did
>
> I never had the slightest sense of this. quite the contrary. I seriously
> doubt that imitating "Forbidden Games" remotely entered into Takahata's mind.
Actually, I've never heard of or seen "Forbidden Games". I was merely quoting that one guy. Either way, I found GotF to be trying to hard. Granted, war is hard on children and in no way a good thing, but even so, I found GotF reaching the realms of bathos, punctuated by scenes of childhood innocence.
> Perhaps, with a more adult perspective (and more refined artistic judgment),
> you would not be so dismissive of this film -- oif you saw it today.
Maybe, maybe not. I respect that you and others like it, but I feel no need to suffer through it again. I only mentioned that it's been a while since I've seen it so that I wouldn't get dragged into arguing details.
> >I think you're right regarding the best way to view it (Noel:I'd say
> >forget that it's animation and try looking at it (if ever you get
> >around to doing so again) as a story. Is the story told well? I think
> >so, but maybe if you set the question of "to animate or not to
> >animate" aside, some other reason why it seems so unlikeable or
> >pretentious might come up.). And with regard to that, please see my
> >first paragraph.
>
> I really hate it when people fling around the word "pretentious" -- that is
> one of the few things I find to be genuinely pretentious.
Sorry, I didn't quote Noel very well, but everything within that paragraph, between the first and last parentheses was said by Noel. While I did say I got the "look at me i'm art vibe", I'm not quite sure if I'd equate that with calling it pretentious. I'm not saying that it is not artful or artistic; I am not saying that it has no worth. What I am saying is that it is very active in promoting its own worth; that it seems to be pointing it out at every turn. It's like a somewhat attractive person saying he's/she's gorgeous, repeatedly. In my opinion :)
> I find the film sad and depressing at times -- but never unlikeable. And
> the story is told exceptionally well.
As a story, I found it trite and disgusting. As a semi-autobiography, I found it sad and deplorable.
gabe
[1] http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/grave/interview.html
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Patrick Drazen Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 12:24 AM
--- gabe wrote:
> As a story, I found it trite and disgusting. As a
> semi-autobiography,
> I found it sad and deplorable.
>
Trite that so many Japanese civilians ended up starving to support the troops? Sad that Akiyuki Nosaka's adopted sister did indeed starve to death on the eve of the Occupation?
The movie is a novelist's attempts to lash back at the hand that fate dealt him, and there aren't that many white Americans whose privileged experiential set even comes close to what the two kids went through. You have to be able to take the movie, any movie, on its terms rather than on your own.
By the way, from the opening blog, I was struck by the quote characterizing animation as "an ostensibly less expressive medium to approximate the performance of the human face (than live action)." I maintain, as do most of us here I'm sure, that Ghibli's great strength has been the expressiveness of the faces. In this Yoshifumi Kondo was a master, and "Mimi-wo Sumaseba" was his masterwork. Some of the broad gestures by Shizuku are brilliant (especially the arguments with her sister), but so are the subtle ones (Seiji and his grandfather both using their left eye to wink at Shizuku during the "Country Roads" concert). Speaking of expressions, in GotF the face of the boy eating the umeboshi is priceless!
I've called GotF the saddest movie ever made, one which reflects the collateral costs of war, but I could watch "Mimi" everyday for the rest of my life.
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gabe Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 12:06 PM
On 10/26/05, Patrick Drazen wrote:
> --- gabe wrote:
> > As a story, I found it trite and disgusting. As a
> > semi-autobiography,
> > I found it sad and deplorable.
> >
> Trite that so many Japanese civilians ended up
> starving to support the troops? Sad that Akiyuki
> Nosaka's adopted sister did indeed starve to death on
> the eve of the Occupation?
I specifically went through the effort of pointing out that I viewed it as a story and a semi-autobiography, individually, and in so doing, gave my appraisal of each. So please don't try to imply that I find death by starvation to be trite. I don't much appreciate it, and I don't take kindly to it.
But to answer your questions, no, I didn't find it trite because people starved to death for war. I found it trite because it was another war story that showed the suffering of children, but, in my opinion, offered nothing but the obvious and melodramatic. I don't need a story like this to tell me that war is bad for children and for people in general. In war, bad things happen.
Yes, I found it sad that the sister starved to death, but mostly because the brother let it happen, all the while allowing himself to live.
> The movie is a novelist's attempts to lash back at the
> hand that fate dealt him, and there aren't that many
> white Americans whose privileged experiential set even
> comes close to what the two kids went through. You
> have to be able to take the movie, any movie, on its
> terms rather than on your own.
While that may be true, in the author's words [1], "I was trying to compensate for everything I couldn't do myself. I always thought I wanted to perform these generous acts in my head, but I couldn't do so. I always thought I wouldn't eat and would give the food to my little sister, but when I actually had the piece of food in my hand, I was hungry after all, so I'd eat it." This is not something that he wrote in his story, but is quite obvious if you think about it, supported by the author.
And I don't "have to be able to" do anything. I take the movie as I want, and I interpret it as I see fit. Every artist expresses him/herself as they want, and not every viewier will see things the same way. If you have a sister or a sibling you may view the movie differently than if you did not have one. If you've been to or through war, you certainly would see it differently than one who hasn't. In the end, I watch a movie and think about what it's given me, what I can take away. Looking at GotF, all it's given me is sadness and I didn't take away anything that I didn't already have.
gabe
[1] http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/grave/interview.html
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Noel Vera Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 4:54 PM
> From: gabe
> Yes, I know precisely why the brother did those
> things [1], and as I
> said ("I think you're right regarding the best way
> to view it
> (Noel:'I'd say forget that it's animation and try
> looking at it (if
> ever you get around to doing so again) as a
> story.'"), I'm judging the
> story.
Trite and disgusting? That needs more elaborating, if it's going to be convincing.
> Actually, I've never heard of or seen "Forbidden
> Games".
Highly recommended, along with "Shoeshine." It's roughly the same area where "Grave" comes from (quiet realist drama about children in a war).
> Either way, I found GotF to be
> trying to hard.
> Granted, war is hard on children and in no way a
> good thing, but even
> so, I found GotF reaching the realms of bathos,
> punctuated by scenes
> of childhood innocence.
"Reaching" and "trying" are often found in films where the drama is pointed up by music and overacting. I don't see that in "Grave."
> Maybe, maybe not. I respect that you and others like
> it, but I feel no
> need to suffer through it again. I only mentioned
> that it's been a
> while since I've seen it so that I wouldn't get
> dragged into arguing
> details.
It helps to see it again, if you're going to dismiss it out of hand. Helps your arguments.
> It's like a
> somewhat attractive person saying he's/she's
> gorgeous, repeatedly.
I'm pretty sensitive to that sort of thing as well (Schindler's List, for one, I felt had it). But in a film with very little music and very little hysteria
on the part of the characters, it's hard to see where you can find this.
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Sing Yung JONG Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 11:28 PM
I think the problem some people have with GotF is that it is an "animated art film". Let me explain (read: long post).
I remember an old Takahata comment (can't remember which article, older list members know) which sums up GotF-- he said he wanted to show or let the audience experience a "natural death". I believe this is the "proper" way to see GotF, but it also means seeing GotF as an "animated art film", i.e. the audience must get over it being an "animated film" AND an "art film". Of course, Nothing wrong with not wanting to like/enjoy it in the first place.
Firstly, there is the convention that "animated films" should be fantastic (fun?), appeal to the (inner?) child, etc., so some people have seeing "straight" drama/character study in an animated film would immediately give it low grades for being "pointless" or "unrealistic" (read: not using live-action).
Then there is the "art film" aspect, by which I mean a film that is NOT plot-driven. I mean, some "stories" are really mood-driven, character- driven, theme-driven, etc., rather than story-driven. So some people not seeing any direct/clear Aristotleian "action" (A fights B to get C) in a film would give it low grades for being "pointless" or "unrealistic" (read: lack of cause-&-effect).
My reading of Dock Miles in his discussion with Noel Vera, is that he couldn't get over GotF being an animation trying to do a "live-action" (realistic?) story and my understanding of Gabe is that he didn't think GotF had a good (new?) "story" to begin with. Nothing wrong with prefering realism or a good story-- but it would be a mistake to think that those were the things GotF was trying to get through.
GotF basically takes the audience through a journey of being abandoned to die, so all it wanted to show was the premise and not a good "story". That's why the narrative/background was so minimalistic. For the same reason, the animation in GotF was done to create a certain mood/atmosphere (of death & abandonment) and not to "recreate" live-action. I think a live- action film would only "look" like GotF if it used lots of colour filters.
That's why I think it's a great idea for the Japanese TV series based on the book to use the aunt as a viewpoint character. I mean, live-action TV always seem to have difficulty portraying young children directly (which is why Totoro is so brilliant). Really looking forward to Nanako's performance (as the aunt) cause she has been quite good at playing characters I would love to hate. 8^)
Sing Yung
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gabe Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 10:08 AM
On 10/26/05, Noel Vera wrote:
> Trite and disgusting? That needs more elaborating, if
> it's going to be convincing.
Well, beyond what I've already written (repeatedly) regarding that children and war is something that's obvious and that I found the brother's actions/inactions disgusting, I'm not sure what else I can/should tell you. I'm not trying to convince you that it's a bad film. I'm trying (if anything) to convince you that /I/ think it's a bad film. As I've also said previously, I respect that you and others like the film. Is it really that hard to just accept that some people aren't going to like it?
I hate it when people don't like what I like, but then can't tell me why. I've at least answered your questions to the point where I'd be satisfied if our situations were reversed.
> "Reaching" and "trying" are often found in films where
> the drama is pointed up by music and overacting. I
> don't see that in "Grave."
I really don't remember the music (a hallmark of a good soundtrack some might say), and I would never count myself a good judge of Japanese acting (voice or otherwise), so I doubt that played into my decision. When I said that I felt it was trying too hard, I was referring to it's plot and situations (from a story point of view, not from a biographical point of view). See my statement regarding bathos.
> It helps to see it again, if you're going to dismiss
> it out of hand. Helps your arguments.
Not that I want anyone to, but I don't think anyone has actually refuted my main point of the brother's actions being disgusting. That is why I don't want to see the movie again (along with other points already brought up). I don't want to see him letting his sister starve to death again. That, to me, is not a good story. Why would I want to see THAT again?
And I think it's a little harsh to say that I've dismissed it out of hand. Clearly I've seen the whole movie. I understand that war is hard on children and on those children in particular. I've made comments not only regarding the story, characters, and author, but the points you brought up originally in your argument with Dock. Further, it is not clear on what point any of my arguments would be helped by viewing the movie again. While discussing any subject it certainly helps to be well-versed on the subject matter, I don't see how any of my discussion to this point has been inadequate.
gabe
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Joe Monson Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 10:51 AM
On 10/27/05, gabe wrote:
>
> Well, beyond what I've already written (repeatedly) regarding that
> children and war is something that's obvious and that I found the
> brother's actions/inactions disgusting,
Going by what the brother says at the end of the film (IIRC, since it's been a while since I watched it), I think that's the way you are supposed to feel. He wasn't happy that he'd been selfish and let his sister die, either.
I think that the film accomplished at least one of its purposes with you, regardless of whether you liked it or not.
Joe
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Geir Friestad Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 11:10 AM
Quoting gabe :
|
| I found the brother's actions/inactions disgusting, [...]
But that's exactly the point. The author of the original story did feel guilty about his actions/inactions, which led to his sister's death. GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES is essentially a confession, and that's how it should be viewed. It's not really trying to make a greater point than that, although one can certainly be extrapolated from it.
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Noel Vera Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 1:41 PM
> Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:24:12 -0700
> From: Patrick Drazen
> By the way, from the opening blog, I was struck by
> the
> quote characterizing animation as "an ostensibly
> less
> expressive medium to approximate the performance of
> the human face (than live action)."
The complete statement I wrote goes on to say that in the hands of a real artist (Takahata, Miyazaki, Jan Svankmajer), 'inexpressive' material can be made to
express genuine human emotions, much as actors do. In effect, they transcend the limitation of their material through art.
I do agree with everything else you said.
>Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:06:23 -0400
>From: gabe
> Yes, I found it sad that the sister starved to
> death, but mostly
> because the brother let it happen, all the while
> allowing himself to
> live.
That's where the story achieves the status of tragedy, or as much tragedy as can be achieved nowadays. If they simply starved without any alternative, it would merely be a very sad case history. With the element of choice, it's tragedy.
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Charles Schoppet Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 2:04 PM
We in the West, are so far removed from the pain of daily hunger.
I can understand the actions of the brother in GOTF. It's so easy for an adult to miss the signs of starvation in a child, that they see everyday. The changes are slow as malnutrition takes a life. Remember, we are dealing with a sixteen old year boy, who dies in the same way as his sister.
However, I do believe he should have taken his Aunt's lead and found work.
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gabe Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 8:10 PM
For both you and Joe...
On 10/27/05, Geir Friestad wrote:
> Quoting gabe :
> |
> | I found the brother's actions/inactions disgusting, [...]
>
> But that's exactly the point. The author of the original story did
> feel guilty about his actions/inactions, which led to his sister's
> death. GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES is essentially a confession, and that's
> how it should be viewed. It's not really trying to make a greater
> point than that, although one can certainly be extrapolated from it.
I'm not sure you can say definitively that that was the point. From that link I keep trotting out, clearly, what happened and what was portrayed is not the same thing. To say it is a confession is somewhat incorrect. The author said that in the story, the brother became a better person at the end (or words to that effect). Whereas, clearly, by the end of the actuality, we are left with a brother that ate his sister's food, leaving her to die. Guilty sure, but well aware. So there becomes a question of guilt, and degree of guilt (degree of responsibility, culpability), and it becomes necessary to separate the
brother character from the brother person.
That either brother felt guilty about the death of his sister is without question. But without admitting the brother character logically had to have eaten his sister's food, viewing the movie might seem that the brother character placed a relatively larger part of the blame on the situation rather than his own decision.
Logic break: I am no biologist/nutritionist/medical doctor, but it seems to me that a person that is larger, as the brother was, would require more nutrients than a person who is smaller, as the sister was. This is purely from a survivalist standpoint, not a developmental standpoint.
I have two uncles, one much older than the younger, the older also being much shorter. Of course, there is a chance that it was simply just the way the genetics played out, but there is another factor. The older uncle grew up in postwar China, and was therefore, sometimes deprived of the optimal amount of food for proper development. When the younger uncle was born, the older was really more of a third parent. The older told the parents, "make sure he gets plenty of food", or words to the effect. And there he is, much taller than even I am, an admittedly, privileged American.
But all my previous generation relatives had experiences with poverty, as they're all Chinese, and they all grew up right after the war.
/break over
Reading the author's words, there was a very clear admittance of guilt and wrongdoing on his part. Watching his story, I don't think he went so far as to fully disclose the depths of his depravity.
Either way, I hope you now feel that I have fully appreciated his point, and I still don't like the movie :)
gabe
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gabe Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 8:13 PM
On 10/27/05, Charles Schoppet wrote:
> I can understand the actions of the brother in GOTF. It's so easy
> for an adult to miss the signs of starvation in a child, that they see
> everyday. The changes are slow as malnutrition takes a life. Remember,
> we are dealing with a sixteen old year boy, who dies in the same way
> as his sister.
Perhaps he missed it, but the doctor, as I recall, made a fairly clear diagnosis. To which the brother fairly energetically declared his outrage and demanded he be shown where he could find food.
> However, I do believe he should have taken his Aunt's lead and found work.
Agreed.
gabe
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Jee Hoon Lee Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 10:55 PM
On Oct 27, 2005, at 5:10 PM, gabe wrote:
>
> Reading the author's words, there was a very clear admittance of guilt
> and wrongdoing on his part. Watching his story, I don't think he went
> so far as to fully disclose the depths of his depravity.
>
> Either way, I hope you now feel that I have fully appreciated his
> point, and I still don't like the movie :)
>
> gabe
A lot of discussion but it seems to boil down to primarily: your dislike of the brother character colors your impression of the whole thing. I can understand that, there are many movies I hated mostly because none of the people in it were likable or approachable in any way. It's a legitimate beef.
My take of Grave is that as a tragedy. That's the whole point, people behave like fools leading to misery. I mean, where have we seen that before? Shakespeare perhaps? Lot of his classics have pretty rough protagonists. I mean look at Richard III or Othello, etc. Lot of flawed people there.
But those stories are classics. I think Grave of the Fireflies is a classic as well (not that it's in any way derived from Shakespeare-- I'm just saying, tragedies with oafish main leads don't necessarily mean one can't get some value out of the story).
Jee Hoon Lee
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gabe Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 11:14 PM
On 10/27/05, Jee Hoon Lee wrote:
> My take of Grave is that as a tragedy. That's the whole point, people
> behave like fools leading to misery. I mean, where have we seen that
> before? Shakespeare perhaps? Lot of his classics have pretty rough
> protagonists. I mean look at Richard III or Othello, etc. Lot of
> flawed people there.
When Noel said it, I thought to myself, "Gee, really? Children dying of starvation is tragic?" And proceeded not to write anything because it wasn't very nice, and besides, it wasn't very intelligent. But rereading it in what you wrote, it does cast GotF in a different light.
I mostly avoid dramas, but when it comes to tragedies, I'll move to a different state. Had I looked at it in that way (or had it been sold to me in that manner), I probably would've never even watched it.
Anyway, I guess that's all I have to say about that...
gabe
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